Clinic Growth Secrets: Tips from Aaron Carpenter of Mental Health Marketing. Ep. 35

Episode Overview

• Episode Topic:
  In this captivating episode of Mastering Counseling, we explore the dynamic realm of Mental Health Marketing with the visionary Aaron Carpenter, Founder and CEO of Legendary Lion Creative Agency. Unravelling the intricacies of marketing strategies tailored for mental health professionals, this episode delves into the transformative impact of innovative approaches in reshaping the therapy landscape.
• Lessons You’ll Learn:
  Listeners can expect to glean valuable insights into redefining marketing strategies for therapists, understanding the pivotal experiences that drive innovation, and embracing the power of technology for accessibility and engagement in mental health services. The episode also offers lessons on empowering mental health professionals to navigate the complexities of marketing, fostering growth, and creating a distinctive online presence.
• About Our Guest:
  Our esteemed guest, Aaron Carpenter, is not only the CEO and Founder of Legendary Lion Creative Agency but also a visionary shaping the future of mental health marketing. With a wealth of experience, Aaron brings a unique perspective to the podcast, providing listeners with a deep understanding of the challenges and opportunities within the evolving landscape of mental health services.
• Topics Covered:
  The episode unfolds through three engaging segments. Firstly, Aaron shares the inspiration behind Mental Health Marketing, emphasizing its unique approach and collaborative efforts with mental health professionals. The discussion then shifts to the innovative use of digital marketing tools, harnessing technology and analytics for a more inclusive therapy platform. The final segment explores how Mental Health Marketing empowers professionals, sharing success stories and envisioning future initiatives to enhance accessibility and connection within diverse communities.

Episode Transcript

Aaron Carpenter: Out of those four numbers. Annual revenue. Annual expenses. Total number of clients and total number of sessions. We can help you figure out what your profit margin is, what your lifetime value of client is on average, what your average billable rate is. We can help you figure all that out so that you know now how much your practice can afford to spend to acquire a new client without losing money. And that’s what we build our marketing plan off of. So it’s all very clear and transparent before we even get started, which I think the feedback that I get from my clients is that they love that because they’ve never thought about it that way before. They’re there to help people. And so us bringing the numbers and being able to do that in one hour for free in the second interaction is like life-changing in terms of how they think about their business and how they get excited about like new goals, but also still being able to focus on the work that they want to.

Becky Coplen: Welcome to Mastering Counseling, the weekly business show for counselors. I’m your host, Becky Copland. I’ve spent 20 years working in education in the role of both teacher and school counselor. Each episode we’ll be exploring what it takes to thrive as a counseling business owner. From interviews with successful entrepreneurial counselors to conversations with industry leaders on trends and the next generation of counseling services, to discussions with tech executives whose innovations are reshaping counseling services. If it impacts counseling, we cover it on masters in counseling.

Welcome back to Mastersing Counseling. Today, I’m so excited for you to meet Aaron Carpenter, who has started on a huge business called Legendary Lion Creative Agency. And out of that company has started mental health marketing, which is where our focus will be today. Welcome to the show, Aaron.

Aaron Carpenter: Hey, thanks. Pleasure to be here.

Becky Coplen: We are going to see a lot of things, especially on the business side, and looking into your website and all the things you have to offer. Why don’t you tell us what helped you to start mental health marketing?

Aaron Carpenter: Yeah, it’s a pretty interesting origin story. I fell into the mental health space, so I’ve been in and out of therapy from when I was younger, and I currently see a therapist now just to stay sharp, really. And I believe that everybody should really have a therapist. There’s really nobody on the planet that couldn’t use a therapist. Insights. But when I was doing my first websites and logos and stuff, I ran into Joe Snook to the Practice podcast. He’s also from my hometown, Traverse City, Michigan, and we did his logo, his website. Still the same stuff he uses today, showed up as a guest expert on his podcast and in some in-person events, and it really took off from there. We kept getting word-of-mouth referrals and learned more and more about the space over the last ten years, and we’ve developed more structured offerings of just what we know works and not really selling anything that doesn’t. So we can keep budgets tight and affordable and give clinicians exactly what they need to grow their private practice.

Becky Coplen: That’s awesome. I love how you were able to pull in your personal side of it, that it’s been a big part of your life, and now you’re helping other clinicians to get their name out there. What would you say that you do when you coach or counsel the clinicians to expand their practice and bring in their clients? What are some specific ways that you do that?

Aaron Carpenter: There’s a lot of crossover in this industry. So I just want to be clear here. We do teach some things and coach a little bit. But we don’t have like a formal coaching program. We’re very much more like on the marketing side doing like logos, websites and then giving business tools that help clinicians understand what’s your lifetime value of client, what’s your profit margin, and how to focus really on their ideal client so that they can get more private pay? So it’s more on the marketing side of things. We have some alliances with other people that are coaches and consultants, and I really feel like the more that I’ve learned about that, I think my team and I are really good at the business and marketing side of things, and we understand the industry very well, but it really takes another clinician to coach another clinician. You have to know the ins and outs and have the background, the story and the experiences. So we don’t try to be that resource. But yeah, when we’re working with clinicians, the number one thing that I find is super helpful to get a private practice on track is to, number one, identify and realize that when people are looking for therapy, they’re looking for another human. This is especially true of group practices like small group practices, single location, or large group practices.

Aaron Carpenter: With multiple locations, the owners tend to go, well, we serve everybody between 18 and 65 and older, and we do all of these issues, and it’s so much that the messaging doesn’t really resonate with anybody in particular anymore, not like when they first started and they really started to zero in on what their specialty was. So that’s the first thing we start with is helping practice owners understand that it’s still about that human connection, and that people who are looking for therapy are looking for another human that resonates with them, that they feel like can help them with their issue. So that’s the first thing that we start on here. So if it’s a group practice, we take every clinician through an exercise to zero in on what’s your target market. And then of that market, who is your ideal client? What types of things do they search, what types of questions do they have? What are their common objections? What makes you unique to them as a selling proposal that would really resonate with them? Let’s highlight those things on the site. Stop trying to be such a generalist and get more specific so that even if you’re out of network, this person goes, I don’t care. I want to work with you. It sounds like what I’ve been looking for.

Becky Coplen: I know that’s huge because as I talked to many people, we’re trained in so many things, and business is not usually the minor of counseling, but maybe walk us through. I look through your website, but you would probably explain it better. But it was really fun to see the steps, and I feel like there were three keywords of when you start to work with someone in branding their practice. Maybe you can walk us through that a little bit.

Aaron Carpenter: Yeah, so we’ve evolved how we approach this type of work and how we talk about it, because we’re always finding more clarity in how to convey our message to clinicians and help clinicians understand what we’re trying to do so they can convey their message to their clients. So one of the ways that we’ve started to organize this is I used to call them stage one, two, and three for solo practice, group practice, single location, and group practice, multiple locations. And the idea is that most practices want to grow. They eventually, once you max out your caseload, you want to do your first hire and then fill their caseload. And oftentimes from like a stage one to stage two or like solo to small group practice, you have issues like, well, I opened my practice under my name, but now there’s a bunch of people here. Like, does it still make sense for it to be my name? Or should I change it and make it like a business? Now, one of my clients out of California who’s a wonderful person, she’s a registered play therapist supervisor. She owns a group practice and a few other businesses, and she described it to me as, when I got into therapy, I wanted to help other people. But then my business grew and I started hiring people, and what I was doing evolved from me being a practitioner to me being more of a business owner, still doing private practice.

Aaron Carpenter: But like that was the journey. And so we help facilitate how to think about those changes. So when we take on a new client when we’re interacting with somebody before it’s a paid relationship and we’re in the sales process, the first thing we do is a 15-minute call where we do a needs assessment, which is pretty familiar language, and we’re just going, okay, do you have a logo? Do you have a website? And we ask about all the things that we typically do, and we just get an assessment of like, if you already have a website, we may not need to rebuild that, but there may be other things that you need. So let’s figure all that out. And then in the second call which is first one 15 minutes, second call is an hour. And in that one, my sales team takes you through a spreadsheet that helps you identify profit margin. So we ask for annual revenue and expenses. And if you’re starting, we’ll help you forecast that out. So you have a little bit more of a clear business plan on the numbers side. But we’ll also ask you how many clients did you see in the last time period, say the last year.

Aaron Carpenter: And of that number of clients, how many sessions did you have? And out of those four numbers, annual revenue, annual expenses, total number of clients, and total number of sessions, we can help you figure out what your profit margin is, what your lifetime value of client is on average, what your average billable rate is. And it doesn’t matter if you see some once a month or twice a month or once a week, we can help you figure all that out so that you know now how much your practice can afford to spend to acquire a new client without losing money. And that’s what we build our marketing plan off of. So it’s all very clear and transparent before we even get started, which I think the feedback that I get from my clients is that they love that because they’ve never thought about it that way before. They’re there to help people. And so us bringing the numbers and being able to do that in one hour for free in the second interaction is like life-changing in terms of how they think about their business and how they get excited about like, new goals, but also still being able to focus on the work that they want to do.

Becky Coplen: Very cool. I love how we’re getting a good angle on the marketing and business side for our future therapists and current people who want to grow their practice and partner with others. Can you talk a little bit more about? I know there was a lot of discussion on your website about the actual analytics, and you mentioned this a little bit, but maybe even some of the charts, graphs or things that you use to help a private therapist or counselor.

Aaron Carpenter: Yeah. So I get this question a lot. It really doesn’t need to be all that high fidelity. I was just talking with my partner, Megan about this earlier, when Google Analytics started to get really popular, and there was like big data and all the corporations and businesses were like, look at all this data. We can learn so much. Did you really, though, just because you have a bunch of numbers in front of your screen, doesn’t necessarily mean you have the story or you know how to think about it. And so we don’t really use a lot of reporting like that, because it can be very quick to get so much information in front of you that none of it’s really making sense anymore. That might be counterintuitive, but in my experience, people are inundated with information right now, so we just use what we need. And what that means is if we’re doing organic SEO, if we’re making pages of content for your site, we’re tracking through a third-party tool called SEOmoz, where that page ranks. So we know, okay, if we’re ranking in the top three for behavioral therapist for. Anxiety. In Boston, Massachusetts, for instance.

Aaron Carpenter: We know where that page ranks. We can see the traffic and we have a contact form on it, and we can see how many entries are filled out in that contact form. That’s all we need, right? Like how many leads are we sending you for paid ads? Pretty similar. If we’re doing paid ads, that’s usually a small group practice or large group practice. We have tracking setup, so it’s just a simple number. How many leads do we send you and which landing pages did those come from? That’s all we need. We’re not sitting down and like building out these charging clients. We build out these complicated dashboard systems and analytics being like, okay, well then they came to your home page. And then for they stayed there for two minutes and they went over here like, who cares, right. Did it result in a lead or not. That’s really all that we care about. And then we just test those things over time so that we can always take what’s working really well and continue with it and continue to tweak and experiment to make things better over time.

Becky Coplen: Thank you for breaking that down and making it clearer. I was actually, for the first time just on mars.com a couple of weeks ago, and there’s even a free version. And then there’s the paid. And yeah, it really helped in understanding SEO searches and all that. Talking a little bit more about that, but maybe even like the artistic side or the marketing side, can you talk about that angle when you have the data, and then how are you helping therapists to draw the people in creatively, I guess would be, yeah. Question.

Aaron Carpenter: Yeah. So in my experience, not a lot of market research is really required to understand this subject, but experience is very helpful. So since we’ve been doing it for ten years, we know what an effective landing page is like. We know what clients are looking for when they’re looking for a clinician. Hot take. Right now it’s not your CV. It’s not where you graduated. People don’t care. Maybe they graduated from there. Maybe that’s a connection point that’s really small. What’s your background? What’s your story? Why do you specialize in addiction treatment? How do you approach that? What can they expect in their first few sessions? How many times I look at profiles on Psychology Today and I don’t see any of those things, and it’s just basically like a report card that they’ve put together for themselves. It’s not effective at convincing somebody that you’re the right person for them. And the other thing that I’ll mention is I talked about this a little bit before, but there is for all business owners. Being a business owner myself, I have lots of conversations with other owners, and through my creative agency, we do lots of projects in all different kinds of industries. It is very common for a business owner to go well. I do like say for me, for my creative agency. I do websites for everybody, for anybody that needs a website, like I’ll do one. And the feeling there is that you’ll capture more business by being more inclusive. I think therapists have it working against them because while as an entrepreneur, that’s already modus operandi, that’s like how most entrepreneurs act. Therapists tend to be very inclusive people, which is very admirable, but it just flat sucks for marketing.

Aaron Carpenter: Like, no, like being everything for everybody does not resonate with any single person at all. Right? They will glaze right over everything that you’ve done, all that work you put in your profile because it doesn’t connect. It’s there’s no there for any one person in particular. But if you analyze the work that you’ve been doing and the work that you want to do, often clinician’s ideal client is a bit of a representation of themselves and can be a reflection of why they got into therapy in the first place. If you really focus on that and they come across your profile and it’s no longer, I help everyone between 18 and up and anxiety, depression, couples, marriages, all of them just listing out everything you can possibly think of instead of that, if you go, I help business professional women. I help high achievers achieve more work-life balance. And if you are experiencing anxiety and maybe infrequent panic attacks due to your work and life demands, I have tools for that. Here’s how I approach that. Imagine when a woman who has a master’s degree earns 85 plus thousand a year, is married, has two kids, and is suffering from some anxiety and work-life balance. Issues from all the demands everywhere around her comes across that profile or a rat card at a women’s business professional group that lands right. She’s like, man, I didn’t even know that I needed this until I saw this. This feels good. I should probably connect with this person. If she’s actively looking for you. It’s like the universe just sent her a sign. But if she came across a flyer that said I help everybody between 18 and 20, you can see where I’m going with this.

Aaron Carpenter: It just doesn’t connect. So that’s where I feel like most clinicians get the most value right away is understanding the value of that focus. The second point to that is, and I usually phrase it like this is the work that we’re building towards, not necessarily the work that you take. So this happens all the time. We’ll do what I just described and have a clinician set up with business professional women, and that clinician will get a call and it’ll be like, hey, my name is John. I’m married to the person that seems like you do all your work with. Do you take male clients too? But because it resonates now, you’re getting traction. So that’s, I think, the most comprehensive way to explain it and really get it to sink into clinicians that it’s so important to focus and there’s so many more benefits. I could go on and on because this is what I do. Right. But like guess last quick point on that is that when you go to develop relationships with other professionals, like general practitioners or other specialists, you stick out to them when that type of person comes in their office, when that business professional woman who’s 35 plus with a master’s has anxiety and is asking about medication when he might go, oh, you need to go talk to Jennifer. I just talked with her last week. I’ve been sending her people. She checks in with me regularly each month and she’s an excellent therapist. I think you should try this first.

Becky Coplen: This episode is brought to you by Mastersincounseling.org. If you’re considering enrolling in a master’s level counseling program to further your career, visit Masters in counseling.org to compare school options via our search tool that allows you to sort by specific degree types, tuition, our costs, online flexibility, and more. We were talking before. I’ve never met Aaron. And before when I was looking him up, I realized he used to live near my family. I’m familiar with the college he went to, and there was that little connection, even though it wasn’t a report card. But I would say to you, be encouraged. A lot of the people that we’ve had on the show have gotten very specific on who they are helping, and even across states, such a specific need or some of the people who have the bigger practices have a different person for each need, and then they can refer out. So but definitely this is good because I think a lot of people maybe new want to help the whole world, which is tends to be how we are in this world, and it’s good to break it down. So that was a great clarification for our listeners. You talked some about some specific situations. Do you have any real-life stories of clinicians that you worked with who were maybe really struggling to get clients or find their specific niche that you can share for us, some success businesses?

Aaron Carpenter: Yeah, I tend to be a little bit protective of our clients and their stories unless they tell me like, hey, I’m go tell my story. One that I’ll mention is Mary Ruth Cross. I mentioned her a little bit earlier. She did tell me that I could share some of her successes. She’s the registered play therapist supervisor based out of California. She owns Treehouse Counseling and Cross Play Therapy and Academy Play Therapy Training. She also just released a book, actually on play Therapy, which should be available soon. And so with her story, we met when she was Treehouse and there was a bit of a branding problem there, and the story didn’t totally land like who she was and her personality and all of that didn’t totally land. After we got done with the branding, with the website and all of that, she saw an uptick in business. We continued to work on other projects together, and eventually, we worked on a secondary project called Cross Play Therapy Consulting, where she had taken something. She had already been doing workshops with kids and had this vision of, I really want to help train other clinicians. I want them to be able to have more resources to help them along the certification journey, the support system. So I helped her construct a essentially three-tier system where there was a free CE workshop that we would offer and email her list. We would take care of all of that.

Aaron Carpenter: We had great attendance. For anyone who knows marketing. We had like a 25% open rate on those emails, which is insane. And anyone who’s done cold email marketing knows that like that number can’t be real. It was, but it’s high value. And we said, hey, you’ve been invited to this free. Here’s the topic. It was all focused on play therapy therapists as well. So highly targeted audience. And then within that, I helped Mary Ruth construct a way to offer to them in each session that she had group masterminds, which were a paid service. But then you could get more one-on-one time with her in a group setting, and then off of that, if you had more funds and wanted more attention, you could do 1 to 1 consulting and mentoring through Mary Ruth. And that program launch went incredibly well, something that as a professional, maybe she could have done that okay herself. But all the time, energy, and effort she would have spent in that would have distracted her and would have been opportunity cost for other projects and other therapy that she could be doing. So that’s an example. I mean, I could go on because we do lots of different custom systems and stuff, and I’m a problem solver and analytical thinker, so it’s all about what works best for that client to me. But yeah, that’s an example of what we do here.

Becky Coplen: Great story. We often have authors on here, some of which have just written books. So can you talk to us a little bit about if someone has written a book, do you even advise someone if they’re going to write a book? And how does that play into the marketing and branding when they have something new that’s tangible to share?

Aaron Carpenter: Sure. As you can imagine, working with like coaches and life transition coaches, consultants, things like that, it’s very close to working with clinicians or the mental health field, and we don’t necessarily advise people to write books per se, but if there is a clever business idea, I’m always open to sharing that with the owner. But we focus more on getting attention on the right things and getting that attention in the right spots. So, for instance, I mentioned earlier that sort of business professional woman. So often I’ll use the example. Let’s say if we take on a client, the first thing we do is have them complete a market placement exercise, which is like ten minutes. You answer some open-ended questions. Based off of that, we build out an ideal client persona for you that includes a description of them, their age, their education, demographic stuff that you’d expect, but also what are their top 25 searches around your service? What would be common blog post topic categories? And then in each category like three examples of blog posts that. You could do different things like that so you can really get a full understanding of that person, but in the sense of not in the therapy sense, in the sense of what is it like when they’re on what marketers call like a buyer’s journey to come find you? What does that look like? And once you can understand them there, then the decisions you can make, informed decisions you can make decisions on what should your logo look like, what content should be on your website, what topics should be addressed on your homepage.

Aaron Carpenter: So by having them complete that and complete the ideal and us build the ideal client persona, then we can really start to make informed decisions for the practice as a whole. And it’s a lot clearer, I think as a business owner, as the clinician, to understand why we’re marketing the way that we are. So when we talked about, like the book and things to bring this full circle, that’s where we would start. We would make sure, okay, well, this book has an audience. What is that audience? Where do they hang out? Are they on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn? Like, do they go to events wherever that is? And we identify that first. Then we identify the message that would resonate with them as it applies to the book. And then we take that message to that place. It’s really that simple.

Becky Coplen: All right. Thanks for bringing in the blog posts as well, because I know that’s huge. Not everyone is writing a book, but I would say a lot of people are writing blogs. So let’s just talk about this. Makes me think if someone maybe just got out of grad school and it’s just them and they let’s just make it up. Let’s say they wanted to help teenagers who are really anxious or and can’t even attend school. What would just be like their initial steps if they looked up your website, how would that look for them?

Aaron Carpenter: So the very first thing you do is book a 15-minute call with us. That call is designed to just get to know each other and do a needs assessment. Like I said, our website has the book, a 15-minute call, link, and button all over it. You can’t miss it.

Becky Coplen: Saw that? Yep.

Aaron Carpenter: It’s there. Start with us. We’re real clear about that. And then after that, you do the one-hour strategy session with us where we go through some numbers, and then the final interaction in our sales process is a 15-minute strategy review. Here’s everything you need. Here are the time and resources we need to do it. I get the question often early on in the sales process, and we see it on like our ads on Facebook and stuff. Hey, how much does this cost? We make a recommendation that like, I’ll give you a formula and this formula should be applied to your business whether or not you work with us. The Small Business Administration recommends that businesses that are doing B to C or business-to-consumer work, which clinicians do that they should spend roughly 10% of their annual revenue on marketing services to be effective and healthy and growing, and competitive. There’s a caveat to that, but it really applies to most clinicians. You should be doing under 10 million a year and over 10% in profit margin. You probably know the former. Whether or not that’s happening, you may not know your profit margin talk with an accountant, or they’ll help you figure that out straight away. So 10% that might feel like a lot if you take your whole revenue per year and you move the decimal point over one spot, that’s 10%. Can you afford that? Well, break that down into 12 months. And then also consider this is your entire marketing budget. This is what a reasonable marketing budget would be for you. So how much of that is going to be spent on traditional methods like printing your business cards, letterhead, whatever versus digital like SEO, maybe paid ads, website, whatever.

Aaron Carpenter: That’s where someone like me and my team come in and are handy because we can advise you on here’s what a reasonable breakdown would be. Here’s how we would use the budget. And so I’ve changed selling from packages and services, which weren’t. It’s fine to price stuff that way in my line of work, but it’s never a perfect fit. Right? Because like, what if you already have a website? My package includes a website. What do we do now? So instead what I do is that needs assessment. I know how much it costs to do each of those things. So then I just put that on a timeline based on your retainer. So it makes what we do affordable to everybody. It’s just a question of how long it takes to roll out, which is what we review with you in the end. But we’re really good about getting that stuff done as quickly as possible within usually like set up as month one, maybe month two depending on your budget. And then we’re doing marketing in month three plus or month 2 to 3. So that’s how our pricing system works. It’s essentially sliding scale, but we deliver as much as we possibly can within the means of what your business can afford. And we’re creating business term is KPIs or key performance indicators. But basically we’re trying to figure out what are the numbers to give you so that you have a scorecard to hold us accountable of. How many leads are we bringing each month, and of those, how many of those are becoming your clients so that we know, based on their lifetime value, that this program is profitable to your business? You’re not left wondering, like, we know that stuff crystal clear.

Becky Coplen: So helpful. That’s awesome. I would say our last question is, Erin, what are you thinking about the future of mental health marketing, or even the other part of your larger company where you do a lot of creative work? What are you seeing in? A future for you and the business.

Aaron Carpenter: Yeah, that’s a great question. I mean, I love this space and I love what I do. I am definitely not the person that’s like, I’m trying to build this so I can sell it. That’s my exit strategy. I do not care for that at all. What I like is solving abstract problems. And right now, connecting the right people to the right people in mental health is the one that I have found to be fascinating, and I’m most interested in. It’s kind of why our slogan is we help people who help people. And so I see us continuing this work in perpetuity. Really, all that we’ve been doing now is refining what we do with clinicians a bit, depending on what the market’s doing. So we’re all familiar with like the summer slump. We’re familiar with the kind of boom that we experienced in the industry, like during Covid and let’s say politics I think played a heavy role as well. So we’re basically just creating all of the marketing systems and tools that allow clinicians to show up and participate through traditional marketing and getting printed material in the right hands, while we focus on the digital side and really make it easy for their ideal client to find them, that’s exciting.

Becky Coplen: Is there anything else that you feel that you want us to know about the company, or how to help clinicians and therapists that we didn’t cover?

Aaron Carpenter: Just one quick thing. So what we’re promoting right now is a free yes, I know there’s no free lunch, but this is absolutely free, I promise. No strings attached a free directory. Directories are great even if they’re paid. Like go buy a listing on Psychology Today. It’s worth it. Do the math. Like you get one client every three years. You’ll make money off of that deal. Okay? It’s worth what is it, $40 a month carry or something like that. But we are releasing a self-developed private practice directory called wait for it Private Practice directory.com and you’ll get a free listing. Just go there, sign up. We’ll hopefully add the link to the show notes. And our whole goal with that is just to make it more easy for people to find you. It’s SEO-optimized. If you have a group practice, you can add profiles for everybody in your practice. And our real goal is just to make it easier to get the right people connected and build some more authority and trust in the space.

Becky Coplen: That is great. I hope all the listeners heard that, especially if you’re starting out or you think you will be in a couple years. Aaron, thanks so much. This was really great because we hear a lot from the actual therapists and clinicians. But as your slogan says, we help the people who help others. Did I get it right?

Aaron Carpenter: We help people who help people. Close enough.

Becky Coplen: There you go. We help people who help people. So we’re so glad you’re doing that. And I think giving people the confidence that they need to do the work that needs to be done. We really appreciate your time that you gave us today, and I know that it will help a lot of people, and I’m sure some people will be reaching out to you for support. Thank you so much to our listeners, and please give us feedback on how this is helpful to you, or give us questions that you have on Instagram and Facebook. And I’m going to sign off for today for Mastering Counseling. We look forward to seeing you again in the future. Thanks so much. Buh bye.

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