Balancing Law and Love Michele Hahn’s Journey from Legal Practice to Couples Therapy Ep.81
Episode Overview
About Guest: Michele Robin Hahn
Michele Robin Hahn is a licensed marriage and family therapist based on the West Coast, specializing in couples counseling and emotionally focused therapy (EFT). With a unique background that bridges the fields of law and psychology, Michele brings a well-rounded and insightful approach to her therapy practice. She earned her master’s degree in clinical psychology from a Los Angeles-based program and later pursued extensive training in EFT under pioneers like Dr. Sue Johnson and Dr. Les Greenberg. Michele’s legal background, which included years of work for a legal publisher, informs her practice by giving her a distinct understanding of conflict resolution and the complexities involved in relationships.
After initially pursuing law, Michele found her true calling in psychology, returning to her roots in mental health later in life. Her journey back to therapy, which began in her 40s, was fueled by her desire to make a meaningful impact on couples struggling with relationship issues. Michele’s approach is shaped by her understanding of attachment theory, emotional connection, and conflict resolution, making her a highly sought-after therapist for couples facing emotional disconnection or communication breakdowns. Her work focuses on guiding couples through their interactional patterns, helping them to break unhealthy cycles and build stronger, more fulfilling relationships.
Licensed in both California and Oregon, Michele has built a thriving practice, serving couples both in person and through online platforms. Her commitment to lifelong learning is evident in her continued training in EFT and attachment theory. She frequently speaks on the importance of emotional availability and responsiveness in relationships and uses her background in law and psychology to create a safe, empathetic space for her clients. With over a decade of experience, Michele has helped countless couples navigate the emotional terrain of their relationships, providing them with the tools needed to foster deeper connections.
Episode Transcript
Becky Coplen : Glad to be back on mastering counseling. Today we have Michele Hahn with us. Welcome to the show. Michele .
Michele Robin Hahn: Thank you. Becky, nice to be here.
Becky Coplen : We are glad to have you with your wealth of experience. Michele has a background in law and in psychology, and is a practicing therapist on the West Coast, specifically in relationships. And so we’ll talk all about that today, and just all the ins and outs of that and the special intricacies that go with working with a couple as opposed to individual therapy. So, how about you tell us about how you got into this world of mental health and specifically working with couples?
Michele Robin Hahn: Absolutely. Well, Becky, just like any college age student. I was drawn to a particular area, which was psychology, and I always found it fascinating. You know, how does the mind work? Why do people behave in certain ways? And we all have our own family dynamics that we’re trying to figure out. But by the time I graduated college, I realized I barely knew how to do my own laundry. Who was I to be? Someone’s therapist? So I kind of moved away from therapy and moved into what I thought would be a more stable, you know, career where you learn. I went to I ended up going to law school. So you learn about the law and you can advise people. And I thought it would be very straightforward and a little bit more like a training that I could apply. Whereas psychology, I believe takes a little bit more of life training. So I did go to law school, and I did work for a legal publisher for a number of years. And during my time there, I realized the skills that probably drew me to psychology in the beginning were my people skills, my ability to relate to others, to empathize.
Michele Robin Hahn: And what I was doing for a legal publisher was training lawyers how to come into the 20th century with online services and being able to do legal research on the computer versus in the books. And so I honed my people skills. I honed my adulting skills, and when my daughter was old enough to go to college, I decided it was time to return to my original passion and really do what I think would be best suited for my personality, my skill set. So I went back as an older student in my 40s and went to get my master’s degree in psychology, and I’ve never looked back. It’s been the absolute joy of my life to be a therapist and to finally be able to provide the type of services that I thought I could when I was back in college. But now I have life experience, marriage experience, world experience, and it is very fulfilling to have landed here. And I’ve been doing it for about ten years now.
Becky Coplen : Oh that’s amazing. We should never discredit the life experience for sure, and I appreciate the laundry and getting out of college. I’m about to send my oldest off to college, the first one, and that is one of the things on the list, because I actually don’t mind laundry, but that one I will have to pass off on him. So thank you for that. Yeah, yeah. No. And what a great lens to have the legal background and training and then to work in the publishing end, and especially using the internet, which we’ll talk about later in more telehealth and all of that. We love having different perspectives of where people have come from. So congrats on a whole shift in your 40s. That’s awesome.
Michele Robin Hahn: Yeah, I really admire Maya artists like Madonna or other artists who recreate themselves over the years. It’s you’re never too old to become a better, newer version of yourself. So I stand by that.
Becky Coplen : Yeah, that is so exciting. So taking all that experience and knowledge and you have your practice and you are trained specifically in marriage and family therapy. If I’m missing something, you can add to that. But let’s kind of talk about how you were licensed and then now duly licensed in both California and Oregon.
Michele Robin Hahn: Yes. So the program that I went to was in Los Angeles, and it’s a master’s in clinical psychology. And so you get a broad spectrum of types of therapies and types of theories. And really where you end up specializing is postgraduate. And what I tell people is I literally gave myself a second graduate degree by studying specifically Couples therapy. So the degree the masters is in clinical psychology. But to specialize or to create a niche, you have to put yourself through a lot of extensive trainings, I believe, to feel competent in the area. Especially for me being a couples therapist.
Becky Coplen : Okay, I like that. And just because we love to help people and gaining knowledge. Were there a huge amount of differences between California and Oregon and the requirements to be licensed in Oregon, or was it just extra paperwork and money? What did that look like?
Michele Robin Hahn: Yeah, the latter extra paperwork in California and probably New York, as I understand, are two of the hardest states. They were to pass the bar, and they probably are the same with the board of psychology in both states. So once you have your license in California, a lot of other states are very willing to offer reciprocity. Reciprocity doesn’t mean like an automatic shoe in, but pretty much so I had to take a rules and ethics exam, and of course I had to pay fees. but it was fairly pain free to become duly licensed. The process was not not very arduous. What I’m learning because I’m newly licensed in Oregon, obviously, I’ve had my California for a while. Is learning the new requirements for CE to make sure that I hit all the requirements for re licensure or renewal when that time period comes up, California has it down pat. I usually use a piece of software or an app called Track My CEUs, but unfortunately Oregon doesn’t have that. I’m having to go old school and create a Google Google Sheet and log it myself and pray that I have it down. Right. So, if any of your listeners know of a better app for Oregon tracking your CEUs, I’d be very appreciative.
Becky Coplen : Yeah. No. I love details like that. Right? Because people are like, oh, I’m just going to go and do this. And then they’re like, oh, I wish I had known. and maybe there’s an easier way, even maybe at a different state. but some type of app or something that can help would be great. So, so let’s talk about, some of the specifics of couples counseling. And you mentioned the post-graduate where you were very specific. What are some of the methodologies and resources that are most helpful in your work with couples?
Michele Robin Hahn: Well, you know what? First, you have to pick a lane. The lane that I chose was emotionally focused therapy. It’s one of the gold standards in couples therapy. There’s others out there, there’s Gottman, there’s Imago, and probably other emerging theories. But I was very fortunate and felt privileged to have met doctor Sue Johnson, who is one of the originators and also met and trained under Doctor Les less. Greenberg, who is original, one of the original designers of the program. Of the theory of emotionally focused therapy, I believe doctor Sue Johnson was a student of Doctor Les Greenberg, so I’ve been so honored to be in both of their presence, hear them both speak and learn from their own very words about the theories and how it developed. so thankfully, in Los Angeles, there’s a very robust, emotionally focused therapy group. And we have done trainings, they have done certifications, they provide support groups, they provide online EFT cafe, I think it’s called. So I’ve gone through all the different trainings that they offer, and I’ve also offered myself up as a as an assistant during some of the live trainings, when we were able to go back into the the larger rooms and all be together post Covid, as the best way to learn is to teach as I’ve as I’ve experienced, so I don’t stop learning.
Michele Robin Hahn: I’m constantly by my bedside reading books on attachment theory or different emotionally focused lens books, as well as just talking to colleagues. so I think that answers your question in terms of the training. Literally give yourself you become an expert and I you know, I’ll say I’m a specialist. I don’t know if I’m an expert, but I feel very, very confident in my skills as an EFT therapist. I’ll tell you before I got any specific training in couples therapy when I was just a newbie, just trying to figure out, you know, what I was good at, what kind of clients I like working with. You know, it’s like you’re swimming in a deep, dark ocean without any paddles or any masks. So EFT gives you a lens, gives you a roadmap, gives you the confidence to know what you’re looking for. Because as you can imagine, having two people in the room or two people on screen really does can get pretty wild with all the details and all the different directions it could take.
Becky Coplen : Yeah, absolutely. I always admire, when people are doing either work with whole families or with couples, and in my head it just always seems like a longer thing because it can be so complicated. And, you know, I’m sure you’re sometimes doing one on one and then the couple time and then maybe some one on one again and keeping everyone on the same page. It definitely feels like quite a lot. Why don’t you just talk a little bit about that for a minute as far as, like, organization and keeping track of your therapy notes, how does that, you know, do you keep notes for each person in the couple. Is it all one file? How does that look?
Michele Robin Hahn: Good question. Yeah. So when I create a file I use the app. Simple practice. So I create a couple file so I don’t keep it on the individuals. It’s the couple is my unit of of treatment. And when I work with a couple I do um the first four sessions are unique in that I meet with them both together and then session two and three I meet, I do an individual session with each of them. Of course, the notes are still kept in the the whole couple’s notes, but I do an individual sessions just to get a feel for their. I do an attachment interview, so I get a style of their get a feel for their attachment style. And what I’m looking for in those individual sessions is how they handled conflict, what messages they got from their parents or family of origin, around being able to express your emotions around what felt safe, what didn’t feel safe, and when it didn’t feel safe. What were their coping mechanisms? So that when I go back to the couple in session four, where I have a much better picture of each of their styles, each of their go to coping mechanisms, and then through EFT, we help the couple to learn their interactional patterns or their cycles. And most couples do have them, whether we’re talking about emptying the dishwasher or, you know, asking for bids for closeness or intimacy. And so based on their coping mechanisms or how they learned as children with their own family of origin, you know, were they able to express how they feel? If not, what did they do? Did they go inward and withdraw? So we try to map out when partner A does or doesn’t do something, what’s the impact it has on partner B, and then what partner B do.
Michele Robin Hahn: And so let’s say partner B withdraws. They feel an attack coming. They feel a criticism, they withdraw. So what happens back with partner A when they see that withdrawal. Oh when I see withdrawal and my family of origin, when my mom would get quiet, I would do everything I could to get back in her good graces. So we kind of use those childhood patterns and bring them into the couple. Because truly, these are the most intimate relationships with our parents or caregivers or whoever were around for us when we were children, developing our sense of the world, sense of self, sense of love, sense of sexuality. And now we’re in another intimate relationship with our partner. So I organize my notes based on their different ways and their different patterns of interacting and coping with discomfort. And I help to make it explicit to the clients as well as help them each internally go deeper into their own feeling world and try to make sense of their own actions tendencies. Because we often think something, something happens or we get a feeling about it and then we do something or don’t do something. So that’s my organization system, and that’s how I structure my sessions and my notes.
Becky Coplen : Yeah. That’s a great breakdown of what could be happening in a lot of relationships. And I did even see that on your website. The four initial meetings up together, separate, separate, and then back together. And then I imagine there’s many more meetings that go from there, depending on the state of the couple.
Michele Robin Hahn: Yeah, sorry, I didn’t mean to speak over you. Yeah. We usually meet together for the most part, unless the three of us decide. And I and I pretty much only work with couples as opposed to polyamorous situations. So with the couple, we decide.
Michele Robin Hahn: Are.
Michele Robin Hahn: We going to meet again individually? And then we decide as a group? I always encourage them to please, if they’re going to text me or ask me for an individual to text as a group, because I don’t want to create any side conversations or triangulations. Mhm.
Becky Coplen : Yeah. Very important details of having a great relationship with clients and being able to maintain that all the way through. Thank you for giving us those tips. Let’s talk a little bit of kind of your vision in your practice and where it came from and where it is. As far as I think you are the sole therapist. And like, do you handle all the administrative behind the scenes? Do you give that out? What is that look like?
Michele Robin Hahn: Yeah. You know, simple practice. I am plugging them today, but they really do make my life pretty easy. They are a calendar, you know, calendaring system as well as they do. They help me to process the charges. So I collect credit cards so that when the session is over, all I have to do is build a credit card. I also can create super bills, and on the rare occasion that I agree to submit a claim, all that is done seamlessly through simple practice so I don’t have to delegate or outsource those services because they’re pretty much, you know, a click of a button. Trying to think there was was anything else? I do hire a bookkeeper so that she can help me organize, you know, my bank statements, my credit cards, my simple practice stripe is the soft is the credit card process service. So she’ll look over those charges and help me come up with my profit and loss statement at the end of the year. So that is an invaluable resource because I’m not a QuickBooks kind of gal.
Becky Coplen : Yeah, it’s funny, we hear QuickBooks mentioned a lot here. And it’s either QuickBooks are my go to. I love it my whole life, but other people are like no I’m never touching it. Or I hire someone who knows how to use it. So yeah.
Michele Robin Hahn: You need something. Either you can do it yourself or someone, but some system to keep your finances, you know, separate from your personal and organize in such a way that when taxes come, you know, you know what? You know what’s up? Right, right.
Becky Coplen : That’s great. When I believe you mentioned at some point that you were seeing clients in person as well as online since 2016 and this beginning, how has that shifted remained the same? I know at some point it probably was all online. But what does that look like for you?
Michele Robin Hahn: Yeah, I loved having an office from when I was an intern or now it’s called an associate. Up until Covid, I had offices in the West side of Los Angeles, and I absolutely adored the whole therapist style of dress and welcoming people in and creating a cozy environment. But then, like all of us, we got hit with Covid and we all had to pivot. And I ended up creating my practice online, like all of us did. I started in a little room in my upstairs garage just to have some privacy, because I just had no idea how to create, you know, that insulated feeling. And since that little room up in my garage, I’ve since created like a home office environment with some soundproofing and, you know, once I got the hang of it and felt confident that I could do therapy online, it became natural. It became my way of working. And even though people started going back in the office, I remember some were 50 over 50. Some were coming back for a day a week. I realized I grew very accustomed to the flexibility of doing therapy from home and having all the luxury of home, right? Having your bathroom, your refrigerator, your comfortable clothing.
Michele Robin Hahn: So your ability to walk your dog in the middle of sessions. So it became, not just something I learned how to do and dealt with, but more something that I now prefer. And I think the efficacy is just as good as in person. I know people argue and I and I agree, you can’t reach out and touch your client and you do miss some of the nonverbal, you know, if their toe is tapping. But for the most part, I’ve been pretty amazed how I can even catch like a little bit of wetness in the eye and kind of capture, you know, I can see someone swallow, and I feel like I’ve just learned to super hyper attune to each client’s facial and non-verbal to be able to pick up on on what’s happening. And with couples, I do require that they stay in the same room together. I don’t want three of us. Three? yeah, because that part is more important than me being in the same room.
Becky Coplen : Yeah. No, that’s an excellent point. I was actually just in another meeting that was more business type things, but it was the three screens, someone popping in and out. And. Yeah, I can’t imagine if you’re dealing with a relationship issues that that would work very well. And although you might learn a lot if one if someone isn’t tuning in, then you’re getting right.
Michele Robin Hahn: It’s it’s a symptom. Yeah. And we just bring that in like what happens when that person is checking their phone. Or you can see them suddenly their eyes become glazed over and you can kind of tell that they’re reading something on the screen.
Becky Coplen : In talking about helping with all different couples, what would you say, you know, in 2024? I know there’s probably a whole slew of issues couples are dealing with. And I think on your website, you listed a lot of things that you specialize in helping with. Is there any trends or like the top three issues that you’re really seeing? A lot of struggle.
Michele Robin Hahn: Yeah, I thought about that. You know, look, the bottom line is people are always going to be bidding for connection, right. You know, we get we get into a relationship with the hopes that someone is going to be emotionally available for us, responsive to our needs. Those things have not changed. Has our world changed? Is there more stress? Is information coming to us from all different angles? Are we being inundated? Yes. That seems to be more of the trend in that managing their own personal, you know, sanity or happiness or contentment or being able to manage all the demands and also be a self-fulfilled person, right. So they’re coming in with. How do I create my own self satisfaction? Sexual satisfaction? gender roles are taking taking place in the relationships. More changing and shifting, more multicultural issues are coming up dealing with, you know, differences of backgrounds. But I think the tenants are still true of key. And I rely on you to be there for me in times of need. And when you weren’t, how did we manage? How did we get through that? And what ruptures happened that are still there? Which is why we’re usually seeking couples therapy. We can’t get past some of those ruptures. So we have to go back in and sort of take a look at the wounds, do some triage, and find new ways to deal with conflicts that are going to come up because they’re going to I can never promise anyone that they’re not going to fight, disagree, see things differently and let each other down. Intentionally or not? Usually not.
Becky Coplen : Mhm. In thinking about that, do you, do you work with couples for a while. They, you know, heal some wounds, feel like they’re on much better footing and then they come back to you in a few years, maybe their parents or. Does that happen a whole lot or.
Michele Robin Hahn: Absolutely. Yeah. That’s the beauty of working with couples. You know, they know I’m here for them. So we might get through a rough patch. We might kind of work on some stuff that wasn’t working well and kind of get them to a better place. And then we go, you know, you guys are doing great. Just take what you’ve learned and have a great life. But more often than not, they’ll come back. Like you said, new issues arise. You know the five year old in their life when I saw them five years ago might be a ten year old with different types of behavior or we’re our parenting differences are really coming to light right now. So they’ll come back in and it’s nice. I love seeing couples develop through the years. You know, some will just stay with me for check ins to have like a once a month time that they talk and air their grievances or want to, you know, kind of work out a situation. Maybe they have an aging parent that’s going on and they’re trying to work it through. So we just have meaningful conversations. So it’s you know, that’s the nice thing about working with couples. The couplehood has a lifespan and has ages. So yeah, all all the above, you know, there’s that crisis time. Then there’s the maintenance time, then there’s the check in time. And sometimes you won’t hear for a couple for a couple of years and they’re like, oh, here they are. Let’s see what’s going on.
Becky Coplen : Yeah. Yeah. No, that must be very fulfilling to, you know, have them come back and you must have a lot of files though if the, you know, the new people and then there you must be like in maintenance mode, in check in mode, in crisis mode.
Michele Robin Hahn: This is thank God. Again. I’m going to mention simple practice. But you know, when I did start practicing I had paper files. Right? And it’s like I still have a stack of them. I don’t know what. I guess at some point you can discard them, but thank God they’re electronic because. Yeah, hundreds.
Becky Coplen : Yeah. Are you with those files at all? Are you using ChatGPT or AI at all in any of your notes or. I have any of that? Okay, I have, I understand.
Michele Robin Hahn: I have some, some people in my life in their 20s and their 30s who are encouraging me to play with it, whether it’s in the marketing of my material or writing notes. I would imagine at some point simple practice will have an AI component. right now we’re on zoom, and I see this AI companion down at the bottom of our screen, and I don’t dare touch it because I’m not quite ready to venture there, but I absolutely Embrace and support technology because, you know, we have to. If we don’t, it’s just going to keep going and we’re going to be left behind in the dust. And that goes all the way back to my legal career when I would train these, you know, older attorneys who were used to walking into the library, pulling a book off the shelf. And I’m trying to teach them that there’s so much more efficient ways to find the information you want online. So it’s it’s about change and accepting, you know, accepting the fact that you have to grow with it and learn new things. So I’m right there on the edge myself and trying to figure out where ChatGPT would fit into my practice. I’m thinking it’s going to be more helpful in my marketing materials. Okay.
Becky Coplen : Yeah. What, do you do? I know you have a website. Do you have other materials that you’re writing and sharing? What do you do on the marketing side?
Michele Robin Hahn: On the marketing side, I have an Instagram. I have a very, very small TikTok account. You know, I’m old school in that way, in that I do and always have done in person networking. Of course, during Covid it was maybe more on zoom, but really I if I’m going to refer someone because as a couples therapist, I’m more often referring to my individuals out to individual therapists. I have to, for the most part, know, like and trust the person I’m referring to and have a little bit of a relationship, especially if we’re going to consult on the case. So a lot of my marketing, if you will, is done in person just through lunches or back in the day when I was a member of Camfed, I’m still a member of California marriage and Family Therapist. They’d hold monthly or every other month, meetings in person in a large ballroom, and we’d have a speaker and we’d all sit at tables and there would be a prompt question and we would generate, you know, a lot of great Conversations and great connections that I still have till this day. so I’m still doing it a little bit old school. I’m trying to do that here in Oregon as well. Reach out to other therapists and create relationships. I’m a relationship therapist, so. Right. Right. Based on relationships?
Becky Coplen : No, I get that. I mean, I feel like especially if you’re doing so much work on the computer, then for something else, you want to be with the people out in public, like I, I cannot, I know I can never sit at a computer all day and never it would make me absolutely crazy. So yeah.
Michele Robin Hahn: Yeah, moderation. Everything in moderation or, you know, trying to make sense.
Becky Coplen : Yeah, well, that’s good to know. And, and I’m sure others as well appreciate the networking. And, one thing I was thinking about, and you mentioned, using technology and how you were helping lawyers do that, I’m sure people ask you often with you know, oftentimes therapy is a step before people as a couple have to go to a lawyer. Do you bring that information into the therapy at all? Do people like it if they’re really at that point, but maybe this is a last chance. How much of your knowledge of that do they try to bring in? Or do you say, nope, we’re keeping it as the therapy. You would have to consult another lawyer.
Michele Robin Hahn: I see what you’re saying. Yeah. Well, you know, there is an area called discernment counseling which you can help a couple decide. Are we going therapy? You know, should we put divorce on hold for a few months and do therapy and then we can proceed? So you kind of help them to decide what they want to commit to if they are truly like this is a last ditch effort. And if this doesn’t work, you know, we’re going to go. We’re already ready to go. Chances are they’re already on the side of wanting to split. But if they are willing to do take divorce or separation off the table, then we can go forward and do some work. If they’re if both of them have some skin in the game when the when and if and it does happen, they are really incompatible. They don’t want to do the work anymore, which is often the case. I’m a big fan of mediation. I do believe before we call in the lawyers, there’s a lot that can be accomplished through mediation. And I have several colleagues that I refer to and have a close network of, that will do the mediation, meaning sit them both down and go through a list of, you know, this is how we separate. These are the items that have to be talked about and without incurring a whole bunch of lawyer fees, especially if it’s not completely contentious. I think. And I, and I do recommend mediation before each of us getting our own lawyers. You can still get a lawyer to overlook the documents that the mediator drew up, but that’s the route I usually take.
Becky Coplen : No, thank you for breaking down even the vocabulary of, you know, those words and discernment and mediation and just sticking with therapy and really trying to work on things. That’s very interesting and good to know. is there anything else that you would feel like we didn’t get to talk about, that you’d want others to know about your practice or anything that you feel like you would have to share with people who may be newer in this field of mental health.
Michele Robin Hahn: I guess to the younger therapist, I would say, don’t be afraid to reach out to a therapist. More seasoned. Seasoned than you are. I relied heavily on colleagues to hey, can I bend your ear? Let’s go grab coffee. Here’s a case I’m working with. It’s so valuable to hear someone else’s perspective. Because we work alone. We work in the room, we go get our training, and then we’re there. We are the expert in the room. So, that’s something I would have found valuable and still do to this day. And when a younger therapist reaches out to me, I’m more than happy to pay it forward, have a discussion and just, you know, be somewhat of a cheerleader because there’s a lot of normalizing that has to happen. There’s a lot of fear for new therapists. Are they doing it right? Am I enough? Do I have enough? Like I was in college, I didn’t think I had the skills to be a therapist. Yeah. You know, now I feel very confident as a therapist. So that would probably be the last thing I would add is I would welcome newer therapists if they want to reach out to me or someone that they know that’s more seasoned, try to remember we were all in that place and.
Michele Robin Hahn: Put your.
Michele Robin Hahn: Your shame and embarrassment on the side because there is nothing wrong with asking and showing that you are unsure about how to proceed. There’s no way you could be fully competent and confident in your first few years of practice. It takes a while. It really does.
Becky Coplen : Well, I am, as you were saying, that I was thinking about how many of the people we talk to on here, and not wrong at all, but they get out of college, they take a job where it’s very controlled. Right? It’s not their own practice. They’re in a hospital, which so much value to come from that. But I really love the approach that you took. You were like, I, I’m not ready. So I’m doing something else and going to grow myself up. And then you went out to do it your own way. So, I think that’s really good, but I, I do think it’s so good to be able to reach out to people who have more Our experience, no matter the ages of what they are or even, you know, the type of counselor it is, it just networking and collaborating is so helpful. So yeah, that is really great wisdom. And we just thank you so much, Michel, for being with us today and bringing, the lens of a law perspective paired with psychology and how things are working out on the West Coast. So thank you.
Michele Robin Hahn: Thank you. Thanks for your time, Becky.
Michele Robin Hahn: This was.
Michele Robin Hahn: Really nice.
Becky Coplen : We are really glad that you were able to share on Mastering Counseling. to our listeners, please leave reviews and questions. check out Michele ‘s work and please tune in in the future on social media. Leave us more reviews and comments and we hope that you have a wonderful day.