Empowering Minds and Inspiring Actions for Entrepreneurial Growth with Lambers Fisher: Ep.45

Episode Overview

• Episode Topic: Welcome to Mastering Counseling, In this insightful episode, we engage Lambers Fisher, a seasoned Marriage and Family Therapist and also the owner of Lambers Fisher Counseling, into the intricacies of multicultural competence and professional effectiveness with 18 years of experience. The discussion revolves around how Fisher’s extensive background shapes a unique training method for mental health professionals, focusing on strategies to reduce unintended cultural offenses and bridge divides in various aspects such as ethnicity, gender, and religion.
• Lessons You’ll Learn: Listeners are in for a treat as Brandy unveils practical strategies for enhancing multicultural competence in therapy, drawn from Fisher’s rich experience. The episode explores actionable approaches to navigate challenges in diverse counseling environments, whether in private practice, non-profit organizations, or ministry settings. Fisher shares transformative moments and success stories, providing valuable lessons for professionals seeking to provide culturally competent care.
• About Our Guest: Lambers Fisher, the force behind Lambers Fisher Counseling, brings 18 years of expertise as a Marriage and Family Therapist. With a passion for multicultural competence, Fisher has developed a unique training method aimed at reducing cultural offenses and strengthening professional relationships. His counseling journey spans private practice, non-profit organizations, and ministry environments, offering a diverse perspective on effective therapy approaches.
• Topics Covered: Including the translation of strategies that strengthen couples and families into bridging cultural divides, this episode covers a wide array of topics. Fisher addresses common challenges faced by professionals in providing culturally competent care across different backgrounds. Actionable strategies for navigating divides in gender, sexuality, socioeconomic status, and politics are explored, along with insights into the importance of shame-free strategies for overall professional effectiveness. The episode concludes with a look ahead at anticipated trends in multicultural competence and tips for professionals to stay ahead in providing inclusive and effective counseling services.

Episode Transcript

Lambers Fisher: When you said this, it made me feel that it’s like, oh, sometimes that’s exactly what they need in a non-judgmental, accepting way. And if we learn how to do that in our own way, there’s no one script, but there are some formats that I give some strategies. And then when you personalize it, it goes a long way, because that in and of itself is different than what a lot of people do in their environment. They change their mood, they change their tone, and then other people get mad, “Oh, you’re trying to blame me for something. You’re trying to say I did something. I didn’t do it. It’s not my fault you’re upset” and spiral downhill. They’re expressing genuine feelings and they’re getting attacked for it. But then you can offer something different and pleasantly surprising. Sometimes that’s all the grace that we need to get a foot in the door and provide a new corrective experience. No super detailed jargon and long explanations, no self-deprecation necessary other than preserving the relationship in strategic ways.

Becky Copeland: Welcome to Mastering Counseling, the weekly business show for counselors. I’m your host, Becky Copeland. I’ve spent 20 years working in education in the role of both teacher and school counselor. Each episode will be exploring what it takes to thrive as a counseling business owner. From interviews with successful entrepreneurial counselors to conversations with industry leaders on trends and the next generation of counseling services, to discussions with tech executives whose innovations are reshaping counseling services. If it impacts counseling, we cover it on Mastering Counseling. So glad to be back on mastering counseling, and I’m really excited today to talk to Lambers Fisher, who has his own business of Lambers Fisher Counseling in Minnesota. Thank you for being here today, Lambers.

Lambers Fisher: Glad to be here.

Becky Copeland: let’s talk about your many years of experience and your specific focus on multicultural competencies and how that meets with the counseling and mental health worlds.

Lambers Fisher: Sure, sure. Well, I’ve been doing this for almost 20 years now, which has been a great opportunity to be able to help other people make their lives better, to cope with life’s difficulties and challenges. And that combination of marriage and family therapy with the multicultural awareness and diversity kind of came organically. I kind of knew over time that I’d had a good opportunity to work in different locations. I worked in small non-profit organizations, grant-funded to large for-profit organizations that have sites across the whole state, or faith-based organizations or secular organizations or urban environments, suburban environments, just based on, a handful of years here, a handful of years there. And over time, I started to realize that the people who come to those different locations are going through different life experiences. The people who can afford insurance are different than the people who can’t afford insurance, the people who are driving from a long distance versus the people who can only meet the get services from the people who are local to them or people who feel more comfortable in the faith-based environment versus the people who feel more comfortable in a different environment. I got to get into the deep emotional spaces of and be welcomed into those emotional spaces of people from a variety of life circumstances that I’ve never experienced. I learned those experiences from them, and I start to realize that I was gaining a better perspective of experiences outside of my own, through serving other people and giving them a safe place to be themselves. And over time, I start to realize that a lot of times, that was almost as transformative as any of the actual interventions and strategies that I was providing, because they didn’t have a lot of experiences of somebody who didn’t look like them. Being able to understand them, validate them, help them solve problems. They were only limiting themselves to people who only had the exact same experiences. Otherwise, they’re useless. And so I kind of opened up a new opportunity for them to say, “Hey, if you learn how to express yourself differently and I can show you how you can be heard differently, then, I can not only help you, but I can help you seek help and be help to people from a variety of different backgrounds.” And then I started to realize that cultural differences weren’t just racial or ethnic, different cultural experiences could be gender, could be sexuality, can be different faith beliefs, can be different political beliefs. Any type of difference between us and somebody else is a whole different cultural difference, cultural experience. And based on that definition, then all of our clients are diverse. All of our clients need to be understood in some kind of way, and the more we can practice that, the better we can help their relationships. not only in the therapy room but in their homes, in their work environments, and all over.

Becky Copeland: Very cool. I love that, especially what you said about, they might have been trying to do some specific interventions, but it turns out maybe they just were learning more about different ways of communicating and expressions that come across differently across all different people. So, very cool. let’s kind of go back to it seems like you really started as a marriage and family therapist. did you have your own practice? Were you part of a group? And then how did that specifically evolve into what you’re doing now?

Lambers Fisher: Well, when I first started off, you have the masters of marriage and family therapy. You have you do a practicum have your internship. And I started off at one of those small nonprofits kind of getting my feet wet, learning how to do therapy, but also learning the process, the system of therapy, the pros and the cons, the things that help provide access to many people, and the things that kind of get in the way of actually doing a good work. And over time, I gained appreciation for the opportunities that certain environments offer that others don’t and have been led based on the need. I want to try to offer a different need in this organization meets that need a little bit differently, or I moved to a different state, and this type of organization offers a different need. And so I’ve gained an appreciation for all of them. So I never say, well, well, only the small ones do the really good work, or only the big ones do the really good work, or only this and that. It’s like, no, they all do different kinds of work. They all meet a different kind of need, which again feeds into the differences are okay, we can all meet different kinds of needs. It’s just a matter of finding the ones that you do. And so I’ve always been attached in some way to a larger organization. because I recognize that the benefits of a collective group having different services, different strengths have been beneficial. And, and allow me to really focus on the things that I do best. and so even when as I branch out more individually, it’s less to start my own private practice independent of everyone else, because I have to do everything on my own. As much as there’s some things that I do better on my own, and there’s some things that are better as a part of a team. I originally only even considered doing things separately because I was at a place where they didn’t offer that service. And so if I’m going to do it, I have to create it on my own. So that’s when I started to branch out and say, “I can do this supervision on my own. I can do training and things on my own. I can do consultations on my own not in opposition to somebody else other than to if it’s going to be done, I can make it happen myself.” And so I think having the experiences of being part of bigger organizations gave me the confidence that I can do a little bit more because I’ve seen it done, I’ve been supported by that. And as part of the reason why, in addition to therapy, I also do supervision because I want to empower the next generation of therapists to do the same thing. I want to say, “Hey, you can come into the field wanting to, quote-unquote, help people, but there’s a lot of ways in which you can help people. I want to nurture that. I want to help you find your particular way. I want to help you find your angle. and it doesn’t have to be done as a part of a big group, as if you need that in an enabling way. But there are benefits that can come from it. It doesn’t have to be independent. There are benefits from a group as a matter of finding that unique way for us to make a difference.”

Becky Copeland: All right. Thank you for clarifying that. And would you say that now are you more counseling or coaching other counselors in their multicultural competencies, or are you still taking on clients who are struggling with that? Just clear that up for us and maybe it’s both?

Lambers Fisher: Yes, it’s definitely both. I am very clear. I do supervision, I do speaking, but I’m a therapist first. First and foremost, if I stop doing that, I won’t care anymore. Everything I do is based on the couples who I see. I see couples more than anything else. I’m a marriage, emphasis on the marriage and family therapist. that’s what floats my boat. the couches behind me are not collecting dust. I see I see couples all the time. But I do have a ratio where I say about 50% to 60% of my average week is in direct couples therapy or individuals. and then I do a little bit of supervision and I do a little bit of trainings, whether it be public trainings for any professionals who can come who, who can benefit, or private companies or schools or businesses to say, “Hey, now I went to that training and I think my whole team needs to hear this. I’m a school therapist and a school counselor, and my whole team of teachers needs to see this. Can I send you to the principal? Because you do it in such a way that you take all the psychological jargon out of it. You just help us understand our students better, heck! Our colleagues even better.” And so that’s what kind of span from I won’t stop being a therapist to be a full-time speaker or full-time supervisor because the actual clients aren’t just old case studies. Now they’re the people who motivate me each week to to continue to help others. And when I’m training, I’m training them for the sole purpose of helping all the clients who they see. When I’m training a teacher, I’m thinking not only of the teacher in front of my face, but the classroom of students who I’m helping get a teacher who understands them a little bit better. That’s the goal and that’s what keeps it going.

Becky Copeland: I love that, that you still just want to be in the midst of it. And I’m sure that’s why you’re so good at your work. So, very cool. and I was going to ask you about the space. I’m like, I’m pretty sure this must be one of the offices he works with people in. We’ve talked about spaces on this show and some other episodes, and some people rearrange, especially that if they do couples therapy, they rearrange depending on what level the relationship was at. And I was just noticing. I feel like two people can sit on either couch or you can have your own couch. So yeah.

Lambers Fisher: Exactly. There’s a method to the madness.

Becky Copeland: Yeah. But yeah, I like the look of the office for sure. So I’m glad that you’re in it. so let’s talk a little bit about there’s a lot of I think people have worries or they offend people unintentionally. What are some of the, like, unintended cultural offenses that you come across, whether you’re teaching a whole group or possibly even within a couple’s relationship?

Lambers Fisher: Sure, sure. At its core, the main concept that I try to impart upon people is the idea that there’s so many ways in which we can offend other people that the goal of trying to absolutely avoid them all is virtually impossible. We can’t avoid every offense because there’s no way to know what they all are to intentionally avoid them, especially because there’s no one absolute list of what offends people. What offends someone is usually something that reminds them of a past hurt. And then you say or do something that brings that back in some way and makes them fear that more harm is on the way. So instead of trying to avoid every possible offense, we can do our best to reduce them as much as reasonably possible and then better learn how to respond. When somebody says, did you just say that to me? It’s like, say what? Well, say this. That obviously means you feel this. Oh, thank you for letting me know how I made you feel.” That is not what I intended to do. But guess what? My intention isn’t the only thing that matters. I care about what you’re feeling. And if you’re open to it, I’m happy to do something differently. Not to grovel at your feet, not to lower myself. Or I must not be a professional. No, no, no. I reasonably had good intentions before, and I still do. If you’re open, I’m happy to reassure you that I’m not the threat that you fear that I am. I want to come alongside you, just as I did before, and usually learning how to reduce the likelihood of those experiences, but more importantly, how to respond in ways that reassure as opposed to defend or correct goes a long way. And it doesn’t have to be the big thing that both the person who’s offended and the person who unintentionally offended can experience or worry that it’ll be.

Becky Copeland: All right. That definitely takes some pressure off. Right? Because it is hard to know all the ways that people can be offended. So I like that learning how to respond. If you think that somebody is and I assume too, that you’re helping people, I feel like a lot of people keep it to themselves if they are offended. Depending on personality, they might let them know right away. And I feel like maybe there’s other people who hold it and they become bitter or they break the relationship. I assume you work on that end of it as well.

Lambers Fisher: Absolutely in the same mindset. we can’t be mind readers. It’s impossible. you can’t say, well, if it’s important, you would have known what you did. It’s like, no, it’s unintentional. I had no clue. However, as we get better at it, we can start to see the signs. We can start to see the signs, say, hey, you were more engaged and now you’re not, and you were more talkative, and now you’re not. You were smiling and now you’re not. Was it something I said? There’s various ways in which we can say that we can polish that we can refine that. But sometimes people sarcastically say, what? What were you waiting for, a personal invitation? Yes. That’s exactly what they’re waiting for. It’s like I wasn’t going to say anything, but since you asked when you said this, it made me feel that it’s like. Oh, sometimes that’s exactly what they need in a non-judgmental accepting way. But yes. And if we learn how to do that in our own way, there’s no one script, but there’s some formats that I give some, some strategies. And then when you personalize it, it goes a long way, because that in and of itself is different than what a lot of people do in their environment. They change their mood, they change their tone, and then other people get mad. Oh, you’re trying to blame me for something. You’re trying to say I did something. I didn’t do it. It’s not my fault you’re upset and spiral downhill. They expressing genuine feelings, and they’re getting attacked for it. But then you can offer something different and pleasantly surprising. Sometimes that’s all the grace that we need to get a foot in the door and provide a new corrective experience. No super detailed jargon and long explanations, no self-deprecation necessary other than preserving the relationship in strategic ways.

Becky Copeland: I love that. So much miscommunication happens. I was with some elementary students earlier and all based on it seemed like it looked like someone told me and I’m like, no. But really though, did you actually hear them say that, or are you just assuming and getting everyone in the room and being open is really helpful? So absolutely. So let’s talk about that a little bit. let’s say you were coaching or helping a whole counseling group and you were thinking of the coaching, in a professional manner, and where maybe you have a group of counselors and therapists who themselves are quite diverse in various ways. What would be some of the specific strategies that you would try to help them learn and use to have, like an open and safe workplace?

Lambers Fisher: Yes, yes. Well, first I used to usually try to get people to expand their perspective about what counts as diversity. I already alluded to it, but a lot of times people say, oh, yeah, we’re used to that diversity stuff. And what they really mean is we have already accepted the fact that there’s going to be different skin colors in our group photo. It’s like, okay, that’s a great starting point, but there’s a lot of other different types of diversity that you can have. Some people say, well, we all look the same. It’s like, okay, you may all look the same. You may say may be the same gender and may be the same ethnicity, but do you all vote the same? Do you all have the same socioeconomic status? Do you all live in the same part of town or outside of town? And if I just expand our perspective and start there, then you can realize that the better you get at your self-awareness culturally, then the more prepared you’ll be to understand others culturally because you’ve already started yourself. I’ve had professionals say, can you believe that I’ve been on this earth this long? And I’ve never asked myself those questions. I never even thought about it. I say, exactly, that’s great. All the more you will be prepared when you help somebody else think outside the box of that cultural box. And they say, I mean, I hear you, but I kind of feel bad that you even have to say that. And you can say, yeah, well, I remember when I went to this training and I was grown too, and I need to learn it too. It’s all normalizing. It’s all destigmatizing everything. So we start by expanding our perspective about what counts as diversity. And then you open that up to now look around the room, the same colleagues that you’ve been working with forever. You can see them not as just one similarity or one difference. You can see them as eight, ten, fifteen different things, all lumped into one. The next step after that is not to be inconvenienced by differences, but to learn to be inconvenienced by differences because a lot of times people hear that first part and say, great, more things I have to memorize more ways in which I can mess up, more ways in which I can be afraid, as opposed to more unique opportunities to understand the people I already got to know and appreciate, more ways in which I can say not just how was your day? But hey, how is this aspect of your life? How is that aspect of your life? Somebody comes in and has a having a bad day. Is it a particular area of your life that I now know more about and have a great appreciation of, You can appreciate the unique opportunities that you get. Matter of fact, brainstorming amongst a group of people who feel they’re all the same is quite boring. But when you appreciate the differences that you all bring, it’s like, “Hey, you have the new experience. You have that unique to me experience.” Even though we all may look similar, we all have unique experiences because there’s more to us than just our gender or ethnicity, and we can bring that in. It’s expanding. None of this is policy and procedure. None of this is what happens if you mess up and who’s going to get fired, and who has come up with a review board. The policy and procedure stuff comes next. If we focus on the people behind the policies and build those relationships in more enhanced ways then the policy and procedures will write themselves, they’re just details. Matter of fact, we don’t have to worry less about change as a motivator because of the punishment and more as change as a motivator because of the benefits that it can bring to our unique colleague relationships and the whole creating a safe work environment. So it’s a lot more motivating. It’s a lot less punitive. And people lean into it more and everybody wins.

Becky Copeland: Very cool. Are you seeing, are you a part of any groups maybe nationwide in where you’re thinking, how what the future holds for this type of training or what are you seeing, like the trends and shifts that maybe either colleges and universities are changing or organizations? Whatever you’re most connected with.

Lambers Fisher: What I’m seeing more is as a trend is there’s a current flux right now between different extremes. There was a time when diversity was just one of the many topics, leadership topics relationship topics that you can have. Then there was a big need based on some social justice or injustices that have occurred that brought things to the spotlight. Things need to change. We need to protect those who are being underserved. And then as a trend to follow that of the diversity, equity, and inclusion positions popping up everywhere. But then with certain people responding to those positions and the changes that have come, then there’s a big resistance to change for change’s sake. You’re trying to fix what ain’t broken. And so right now we’re at a crossroads for what it will look like. Is diversity something that we should promote, that we should support, or is diversity something that is an agenda, a skewed view that we need to protect ourselves against? So brutally honest, I don’t know what the next trend is going to be, but I do know that moving forward healthily, we have to get to a point where we appreciate diversity as an inevitability. It’s not an agenda. We all have similarities and we all have differences, not as a political agenda or religious agenda or a gender agenda, as opposed to how can we learn to be in relationship with you? I’m a marriage and family therapist, who is going to come out anyway and be in a relationship with everybody whom we encounter on a daily basis in a healthy way. If we can focus on that, It doesn’t have to be about wokeness, the latest law, the latest injustice, and how much that’s going to be in the news before it dies down. Something that’s sustainable is how can I understand the people I work with on a regular basis. Now, there are different organizations that are focused on that a little bit more. So I’m part of training organizations that are doing so in the mental health field because we are the behind-the-scenes people, in a lot of environments. I also like what Braver Angels is doing on the political side of things, helping politicians and political leaders have better relationships with each other, recognizing that, Yes, we have different, we’re on different sides of the political color scheme, red versus blue versus independent, all kind of stuff. But yet we’re still people needing to understand each other and finding the similarities between what we’re doing, regardless of the specific type of angle, political, faith, gender, things like that. We need to make sure we’re looking at the people behind the policies, the relationships that are behind the changes. I don’t support change for change’s sake, change’s sake, but to meet underserved needs, just because it has seemed fine before doesn’t mean it is what we need moving forward. People say, well, if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it. Well, if it’s broke for some and just not you, then is it worth fixing? And hopefully, we can get to a point in these trends and societal changes where we say it’s not a need for me, but I see that it’s a need for someone. How can I help change enough to meet that need not change? Because you convinced me that everything that we were doing before was wrong, but because it was meeting some needs. But not everyone. What’s working for the majority of people and meet as many people as possible? Not the majority, but as many people as possible. And change what can be changed to meet even more people. That’s what I hope we can get to in one strengthening relationship at a time. I hope to contribute to that.

Becky Copeland: I really like that. That’s really good. because, yeah, change is hard for a lot of people. And yeah, sometimes people don’t see the needs because they’re not exposed to the struggles that someone else has gone through. So that is really helpful. we like to talk on here also about kind of the business angle of things. Are you the sole person of your counseling practice? I know you said you love to be connected to a larger group. just talk to us about that. Do you have admin people? Are you the one handling all of the appointments or what does that look like in your practice?

Lambers Fisher: So for primarily my counseling side, I do stay connected to a group private practice. So there’s an administrative team that helps with the logistics of the insurance carriers and the electronic medical record system, the building logistics. and then as relates to the team under me, I do supervise pre-licensed therapists on their way, and then I leave my private endeavor. That’s just for me, on the side of outside supervision that I do independent of the group to just anybody in need who I can help out with. An individual trainings that I provide to organizations in need to say, hey, how can I help my fellow mental health professionals do their work a little bit better? There’s only a small percentage of Bipoc professionals out there, and who are already getting a head start doing this. And yet we all need to be a part of helping every client feel safe and heard, understood. Every student feels safe and heard and understood every employee at any organization, big and small, going to save, heard, and understood. So to that degree, I’m an individual independent contractor doing those types of services elsewhere. So my counseling is part of a group. And then I do those additional efforts elsewhere and balance them similar to my work as an adjunct instructor. I do that on the side as well. And so I keep my hands and feet few parts. But therapist comes first and foremost. Everything else is as the opportunity arises to try to have as big of an impact as I can.

Becky Copeland: Well, it definitely sounds very busy to me. I would love to hear about What course are you teaching? Where are you teaching it as an adjunct professor? That’ll be really good, because a lot of the people listening are, thinking about the field or already in their major and program.

Lambers Fisher: Yeah, Indeed. No. So locally get a chance to be a recurring guest speaker at Bethel University, Bethel Seminary, Saint Mary’s University. But I regularly do adjunct instructing at Crown College in Saint Bonnie here in Minnesota. And whether it be diversity and counseling or marriage and family therapy theory or just a core basic counseling skills, I get a chance to do periodically a counseling for pastors and church leaders, which is a fun opportunity because you get people who, by their natural role, are asked to be the safe space for people to share their feelings. And yet they know that they’re not the same as trained counselors. They’re being asked to do so. But hey, I don’t have enough to be enough time or space, or investment to become a full-fledged licensed professional. But can you teach me some of those skills so that I can do more benefit than harm? And so that’s a great opportunity to get missionaries, get pastors doing those things. And so in different walks of life and different environments, whether it be diversity, whether it be merger family theory or those basic core counseling skills, I want to make it as practical as possible for anybody to be able to better serve those around them. And so that’s a great opportunity. over at Crown.

Becky Copeland: I so relate to that. My husband is a pastor, actually. And yeah, the needs of counseling, there’s always they are getting training and things. But as the whole world is looking more into counseling, it is part of the church as well. And more and more people are open about that. And having that balance of what you were trained in and then being skilled and being able to help people in that way is super important. So What would you what advice would you give for people maybe either beginning their college degree, master’s degree in going into, we can think of it as the broader realm of mental health, but what would be some things you would want them to know, or you wish you had known when you began this journey?

Lambers Fisher: Well, one of the things that I was actually mentored on, advised on for one of my early supervisors, don’t narrow myself so early. I knew coming into this field, I was motivated to come into this field because I saw so many relationships around me, even as a kid. I was looking for couples to emulate after my parents got divorced and I said, okay, I’m going to look for all the couples I could find to teach me how to do it well, and I didn’t find nearly as many as I was looking for. So it’s like, okay, I’m going to figure out how to do it myself. And I found this whole career field called marriage and family Therapy that could teach me how to do it, as long as I helped other people do it, too. And it’s like, that’s my MFT story, hands down. So I knew that. But that’s all I wanted to do. Just tunnel vision. One of my early supervisors kind of encouraged me to branch out, explore as many opportunities in this field as I could. And when I came down to narrowing things down and being really specialized in something, then I could do so in an informed way. I know that I’ve had some variety in who I serve and what I do best. There’s some things that I thought that I wouldn’t like that I not only like, but do well, there’s some things that I thought I would love, but it wasn’t what I thought it would be based on what I saw before school, what I learned in school. So if I encourage all the students, especially when I’m supervised, if I’m just doing a guest speaking spot in the classroom, branch out, try as many things as you can. As far as in the field, different special specialties, different areas of focus, who you serve, and even how you do it. Learn as much variety as you can. There will be a lot of time to narrow things down, but if you do that, then you can know a little bit about a lot of things as well as a lot about one thing in particular. And so expose yourself to a lot of different things. You may have the ability to meet a need that you didn’t even realize you could.

Becky Copeland: So true. I love that part of this podcast. All the different people, the diversity amongst counselors, therapists is so it’s just amazing how specific some people are, how some people are broader. And then I often mention on here, but I love when the different careers kind of collide. So we’ve had people on, who represent insurance or accounting, but they understand how where the mental health realm is coming from. And so all of those pieces coming together or the media and marketing and as well, so which I did I was on your website and I saw you have the quiz where you can kind of think about where are you at personally and do you need some help in that. So that’s always kind of fun to have that available. Anything else that you feel like you’d want us to know either about your practice or the history of your fields, anything else that we haven’t heard about yet?

Lambers Fisher: Well, for the most part, I’m just happy to be able to encourage other people to do their best to see other people’s experiences outside of their own. Empathy is not as common as it probably should be, and I hate to say should, but I want everybody to try to understand the experiences of those around them. And so whether it be through a counseling experience, I encourage people to try it out. It’s not as stigmatized as people think it is. A lot of people are more pleasantly surprised. And if they find themselves in need, then my focus is to offer, shame-free, non-judgmental, diversity training. A lot of people think that’s a contradiction. People come to my training, whether it be an hour-long lunch and learn type of thing, or they have me come out and do a full day of training and say, on a break to say, it’s not what we thought it was going to be. And they’re whispering conspiratorially and say, what did you think it was going to be? It’s like, well, I was mandated. They always thought that way. I was mandated to come to this training. And the speaker was so angry and they said, I shouldn’t have to tell you this, and you should already know that and after that, I was so discouraged, I was like, yeah, I would be too. But the idea that you can be encouraged, that you can learn about other people in a way that empowers you to do more. I’m not encouraged by shame and blame and guilt. That makes me want to do less. But when we can recognize it’s okay to not know everything and we can learn more about other people, not all at once, but a little bit more and a little bit more over time. Then we can benefit everybody who we serve. No matter what your professional role is. I do trainings for helping professionals in general in any field, and if we are serving others, then we can have a better impact than we think, not just on the specific service that we’re providing, but on the relationship that’s built while we’re doing it. If we can do that, then, we can impact the world. So that’s where, if anybody’s interested, they can check me out. you saw my website, my diversity made simple training. It’s the one that had the most impact. And I hope it continues to have a lot of impact between the training, the online course, I transcribed it into a book. Whatever your learning style is. I hope to try to help out so you can help other people more effectively.

Becky Copeland: Thank you. Yeah. Empathy, It can go such a long way. Right? Just a little time to pause, consider. I’ll tell you on our end in our school, we’re trying to help the kids, we do a positivity project. And the whole premise is other people’s mindset trying to consider, what is happening around you when you do x, y, and Z or say A, B, and C? So yes. Thank you. Well, I really appreciate you being on with us today and opening our eyes to some other opportunities for learning other books. What was the exact title of your book again?

Lambers Fisher: So the title of the book is Diversity in Clinical Practice Powerful Strategies for Reducing Cultural Differences and Strengthening Cross-Cultural Relationships. So diversity in clinical practice, I’m easy to find. It’s not a lot of landraces out there. and, I wrote it with my mental health professionals in mind. I wrote it in such a practical way. No psychological jargon. Anybody who is trying to serve others can read it and be pleasantly surprised. So yes, it’s available anywhere out there. You just look me up and it’ll be there.

Becky Copeland: All right. Great. We’re always looking for great resources and tools, and we really appreciate your time and sharing today. To our listeners of Mastering Counseling. We look forward to future episodes. Thank you for tuning in today. And you can see the links of what we discussed today. Leave us comments, and questions on your thoughts on the mental health world. I hope everyone has a wonderful day, and we look forward to the next episode, where we will explore a whole lot more in the mental health and counseling world. Have a wonderful day! You’ve been listening to the Mastering Counseling podcast by mastersincounseling.org. Join us again next episode as we explore what it takes to be a business success in the counseling industry.